Looking at 3.3, where can a person draw the line between the expression of commercial interests and the expression of Christian values?
Is Venice a state that assumes a universal common humanity or does it make such universalism conditional on being "in Christ"? In other words, is it conditional on being a citizen rather than a stranger?
Belmont vs Venice: How has Shakespeare set up these two worlds in contrast to each other? What does each world represent and why?
I know, I've got lots to ask. That's only because there's lots going on before we head off for break.
19 comments:
1) I’m assuming this question pertains to Antonio’s decision to not charge interest. I believe that Christianity has less to do with his lack of interest than purely Antonio’s good nature. He feels no need to make a profit off of lending a friend money. I think trust is the ultimate factor between the two. Trust helps Antonio know whether it’s safe to lend money free of interest or not.
2) I think Venice definitely favors Christians, but does not necessarily isolate Jews. Shylock is largely responsible for his isolation because he is so unfriendly toward Christians. However, Lorenzo has no trouble falling in love with Jessica, so it shows that not all Christians are necessarily sacrilegious. I think Venice accepts those with wealth and business connections much more than it favors a particular religion. Like Antonio says in 3.3, it’s a city that depends on commerce.
3) So far, Venice seems much darker and less hopeful than Belmont. In Belmont, everything is carefree. Bassanio, Portia, Lorenzo, and Jessica are all safe to love one another there, and nothing really bad happens there, especially in Act III. However, in Venice, especially with Shylock’s presence, there is much more of a conflicted plotline. In some ways, Belmont is like the “green world” that many of Shakespeare’s plays mention/
1) My feeling is that in 3.3 the line between commercial interests and Christian values becomes very blurred... more like a train of cotton balls than a line... for lack of a better analogy. If I had to find where the lint would be placed, however, I would say that wanting his money would be the Shylock's commercial interests coming through, while his determination to slice up Antonio is the expression of hatred for Christian values.
2) I think that the humanity in Venice is reliant upon one's actions, not religion (I hope thats answering the right question...). This is seen in Jessica who, even though she is technically a Jew, does not behave as everyone else expects a Jew to. This mode of actions seems to identify one as a citizen of the community, the Christian one it is true, but the actions seem to make one a citizen and not a stranger.
3) Belmont seems to be a haven from the worries of Venice. I think that Belmont represents a sheltered cove, where everything is peaceful, whereas Venice is the sea, which is much more volatile and whimsical.
1. I understood this question a bit differently than A.J. and Michael. I think that Christian values are conveniently linked to commercial interests in this play. Antonio does the 'right thing', the Christian thing, to pay his debt to Shylock, but that is also what will allow Venice to continue making money. I think the place the two are divided is when a human instinctively wants to protect him or herself, and all interests and values are ignored. I am a bit confused by Antonio's plan, but I feel as though he will want to try to protect himself, unless all caught up in love he is willing to completely submit to Shylock's wrath.
2. I think it is assumed in Venice that each human will act as a citizen, not a stranger. I think this because Antonio's decision to not deny Shylock the bond for the sake of Venice shows that he is looking out for the state as a whole and its future monetary gains rather than his own immediate safety and satisfaction.
3. I agree with both Michael and A.J. here. Venice is where the problems are born; familial, financial, and romantic. Belmont is the place to escape to where the world is beautiful, a beauty embodied by Portia. It seems that in Belmont everyone can get along, whereas in Venice there is constantly drama between different 'others', including the Jew vs. Christian and the man vs. woman. I think that Shakespeare made them two different cities rather than different sides of the same town because the theoretical separation in land allows for the separation of ideals. In Venice money is king, but Belmont seems to be the place of love.
I agree with Michael that Shylock's commercial interests come through his desire to be given what he was promised, and it is hatred for Christians that makes him so eager for the pay to be the pound of flesh. At the end of Scene 3 Antonio has come to terms that he must pay up with his own flesh - and judging by his last lines it is due to a combination of commercial and Christian values. He recognizes he must uphold what makes Venice a prosperous city fiscally, but he also will keep his promise as a Christian.
Earlier in the play I would have asserted that Venice's definition of humanity DOES involve being Christian. However, Scene 3 shows there is some sense of justice for all (well at least Jews). It is mentioned that the Duke could not stop Shylock from gathering his pound of flesh because Antonio made the deal and the Duke must "follow the course of law."
For me, the Belmont vs. Venice set up contrasts the frivolous with business, the immaculate with the grit of society. The play is more dynamic because we see the characters move between these worlds.
I don't think Shylock really expressed commercial interests at all, though he may try to give that image ,what he really wants is to kill Antonio. His hatred of Antonio, along with a possible religious based prejudice that was only increased with the loss of his daughter, Shylocks anger seems to be his only emotion right now.
I think Venice definitely favors Christians. So far, we have seen nothing but hostility towards Shylock. When meeting his daughter, everyone expresses surprise that she is so kind because she is a Jew. This shows there are some strong stereotypes around Jews in Venetian society, Jessica had to intend to convert to Christianity in order to be accepted by her fiancees friends.
I agree with all of the above that Belmont is a much happier seeming community than Venice. Shylock is not the only reason Venice seems to have such a dark atmosphere, Antonio also inflicts his depression on our image of it. When Bassanio leaves to marry Portia, it seems like he is moving to the better area, leaving Antonio behind with all his problems
1) I believe that the line between commercial interests and Christian values is blurred in 3.3. However, I do think that the line falls right near morals and values. When commercial and economic interests begin to contradict Christian values then that person will feel a need to reevaluate his/her actions.Therefore, once economic actions conflict with religious actions, a line must be drawn.
2) I'm not sure if I understand this question completely but I will try to answer it. In order to be powerful and well respected in Venice, one must conform to Christian identity and ideals. However, Venice is a state where money plays a huge role. Money (lots of money) could trump this ideal because of its effect in the community.
3) Shakespeare has created Belmont and Venice as two world that contrast each other. Belmont is the town where men go to either love or never love again. Belmont represents love and and area where love does not matter (any person could try to marry Portia, regardless of social status). However, Venice seems to be more of a Wall Street (the movie, not the place) type area. Everyone is focused on turning a profit and making money, rather than their ideals.
1) I agree with Michael in thatthat, for the majority characters (especially Antonio and Shylock) their religious values and commercial interests are one in the same. A person can draw the line wherever they wish, but I think those two, especially Shylock, the line is very blurry. It is interesting to note, though, that Shylock tolerantly allowed Antonio to borrow money without interest.
2) Through the way that Shakespeare portrays Belmont and Venice as these two, polarized societies, I would imagine that simply being a Venetian citizen gives one some form of rights. We’ve been looking at the major conflicts that Shakespeare poses, and because “Belmont vs. Venice” is one of them, there is not only a rivalry, but a distinct separation between the two.
3) I think it’s interesting to note the way Shakespeare portrays Belmont. The one image that stays with me as a reader is the fact that Portia is already so loyal and faithful that she is going to travel to a monastery to live and pray until her husband returns. That is an incredibly powerful image, especially when it is then paired with the idea of Antonio, sitting in a jail cell, waiting for Shylock to take a pound of his flesh. They are certainly contradictory and one clearly has a much more positive connotation.
1) I think Shylock is so obsessed with getting back at a christian, Antonio for calling him a dog and spitting on him, rather than his commercial interests. Shylock is determined to get back at the Christian society for making his life a living hell (even though much of this can be attributed to himself). Earlier I thought that Shylock was kidding about taking a pound of flesh from Antonio, but now Shylock seems pretty determined that this may be the only choice.
2) I think that Venice assumes that each person is a citizen that is part of a colony, where each citizen looks out for the whole colony's gains instead of each citizen's individual gains. Although Jews have to live in ghettos at night, Antonio still pays Shylock his bond because he is doing the right thing by helping the entire economy of Venice. Antonio cares more that he is benefiting his community rather than worrying that he is paying a Jew.
3) Shakespeare sets up Belmont as a world where nothing bad occurs. Love overweighs religion in Belmont and that is why religion has never been mentioned there. It seems that Belmont is in an entirely different world compared to Venice. There is no character like Shylock that causes conflict in Belmont. On the other hand, Shakespeare displays Venice as a dark and gloomy city that is heavily influenced by religion. Shakespeare represents Venice as being conflicted by religion to show that love is the only way for a society to have no conflict. As displayed in Belmont, what conflict have we seen besides Portia worrying about her suitors? There has been no additional conflict because religion does not play a role in its society.
1) I agree with what everyone has said, but in reading the question and the scenes i agree with Grace a lot. It seems as if the connections between commercial interests and Christian values seems convenient even though Shakespeare always has a purpose for everything. it looks like a coincidence, but it never is. I feel like antonio does the right thing as grace said or the christian thing and that relates to commercial interest because it is what Shylock needs. It allows for Venice to keep making money though because the system continues and there is less to deal with.
2) I feel as if Venice actually favors Christians, but Shakespeare plays it out so that people sympathize for the Jews. In this story it is very easy to feel bad for Shylock. I believe that Shakespeare portray Venice as a place that is conditional on being a citizen rather than a stranger. Venice is a place of wealth where to fit in you need to know the standards of life and have the money as well. Religion plays a part throughout Venice, but it is definitely not the sole favor in Venice. If you are wealth than you can definitely make your way in Venice.
3) I feel as if Venice is portrayed as the center of everything and the busy area. While Belmont everything is relaxed and open. There is nothing to really stress about in Belmont. It is a place to get away while Venice is the center of everything.
1. I think that (hate to be a party pooper) the reading of the expression of Christian values as being Shylock's hatred for them is invalid. That isn't Christian values. That's hatred.
Shylock is using economic interests as an excuse, and is taking out his anger towards Lorenzo/Jessica on Antonio. Since Jessica left Judaism for Christianity, and took a lot of gold (a Jewish stereotype), he blames it on Christianity rather than his daughter, and so wants to get back at the dominant religion any way he can. Antonio just has bad luck, and is the person Shylock can justify hatred for the easiest.
2. "The Duke cannot deny the course of law" (III.iii.29). Venice may have an easier route for Christians to take towards economic prosperity; there may be structures in place that are designed to hold back the Jews. However, when it comes to the state itself, the law, not Christ, is king.
3. Venice seems to be reality and Belmont seems to be idealism. As Grace said, so much drama of every kind is born in Venice and cannot penetrate into the haven of Belmont. I think that Belmont is unrealistic, a sort of deus ex machina. There is not a place that is heaven - everywhere has its issues, sometimes out in the open and sometimes simmering under the surface. I don't like Belmont because it seems too happy, and sort of lacks texture, unlike most of what Shakespeare creates. Then again, I haven't read the whole play, so I can't say any of that for certain.
1) I definitely interpreted this question differently, or at least am looking at it from another perspective than everyone else. I though the question was asking where the line was in how Antonio treats Shylock, and calling someone a dog and spitting in his face are acts based on religious rivalry rather than business rivalry. As far as I can tell, there is a certain respect between fellow businessmen to not call each other dogs to their faces. But, who knows. That could be the modern equivalent of asking someone to lunch.
2) The book I'm using has a really good note about the line Antonio has about laws in Venice: "[He] seems to say that the Duke cannot interfere with the law without thereby denying all foreigners, including Jews, the privilege under the law that encourages all nations to trade with Venice and that thus makes Venice the prosperous city it is." Jumping off of this, Venice has to be kind to strangers, even Jews, to maintain its economy, and I think Antonio understands this, which is why he's going through with the pound of flesh thing.
3) I basically agree with everyone that Belmont is for love and Venice is for business, money, and pounds of flesh.
1) I agree with AJ in that Antonio doesn't charge interest because he is a Christian but because he doesn't feel the need to. However, I also agree with Micheal and Ross that especially with these men their religion are so much a part of their character that it affects all aspects of their lives.
2) Venice obviously favors Christians and I think it definitely isolates the Jews. In the Hollywood movie they show the Jews living in a sort of ghetto separated from the rest of the city and having to wear red hats so that they could be distinguished. To me this is segregation and discrimination and I think that this is not only the directors choice, it is clearly evident in the play.
3) Like everyone else, I think that Belmont represents love and Venice business. Belmont is the vacation getaway and Venice is the bustling metropolis.
1. In 3.3, I felt like Antonio was trying to convince Shylock not only to let him off the hook for the pound of flesh, but also trying to impart his Christian values onto Shylock. When Antonio realizes that Shylock cannot be reasoned with, he seems to give up and try to think of another way to get out of this situation, possibly believing that it is Shylock's "Jewish nature" that causes him to be so unreasonable. Still, it is hard to tell whether Antonio doesn't like that Shylock is Jewish or whether he simply uses that fact to hate him for charging interest.
2. I don't think that Venice is a place that persecutes a certain group of people; the characters in the play are the ones that set up this antagonistic situation. Just because Antonio and Shylock have problems with each other doesn't mean that it is because they are from Venice. Shylock cuts himself off from the others with his strict nature and defensive ways, and he comes off the wrong way with the other characters, even his own daughter, but I don't think that most of this has to do with the fact that they are from Venice.
3. I think that each place represents two main themes of the play: debt and love. Everything having to do with the transaction between Antonio and Shylock (and also Bassanio) occurs in Venice, while everything having to do with Portia, Nerissa, and each of their lovers (as well as Jessica and Lorenzo) occurs in Belmont. Bassanio also leaves Belmont to deal with the debt, separating each theme by location, and when Portia goes to Venice as a boy, she goes there to settle the debt, not to be with her lover.
1. I think that the line between Christian values and commercial interests in Act 3 is pretty defined. Antonio does want to do the right thing by paying off the debt, but at the same time Launcelot is able to convince Jessica that she's going to hell for being with a Christian. The reader knows the clear difference, but the characters are able to use the consistencies to their advantage.
2. I feel like all people in Venice define themselves as Venetians before anything else. While there is a Jewish quarter and obvious tensions between the 2 religious groups, Shakespeare illustrates the fact that everything is revolving around Venice, especially by setting Portia out in Belmont as another element that doesn't pertain quite to the others (except directly with Bassanio). I think he's also making a statement about English peoples loyalty to London, or any ethnicity for that matter. People around the Bay Area, even, get offended if you mis-guess what city they're from.
3. I think that Shakespeare sets up Belmont and Venice differently as kind of a heaven/hell aspect. Portia is a beautiful and rich woman who is virtually unattainable except after a rigorous test, and Venice is somewhat of a cesspool of dishonest men scrambling to best each other. Again I think Shakespeare is alluding to then current issues in London and England, but in MOV he sets up the two locations to show a contrast between the different moral grounds.
I think there really is no line or the line is interchangeable for that matter. It think that the whole society is a fusion of Christian values with commercial interest. I really dont see a line. that is probably due to the fact the character asocciate both values and interest in their actions. Shylock is a prime example of showing how this line is transient.
I think that Venice does favor christianity and looks down at any other religion. I think that the movie gave me this preconceived notion, although not apparent in the book so much, that venice is violently against any other religion than christianity. I agree with Aj that shylock in a way perpetuates the divisions among races. He in this also gives Christians a leg up on jews, as well as straining the relationship between them.
Shakespeare sets up Venice and Belmont as complete opposites. then again they are both pretty peaceful at times, but it just seems like Belmont is more peaceful than Venice.
1) This is a hard question. I think the difference between Christian values and commercial interests is the difference between making a profit and taking advantage of other people.
2) I don't think it matters that much whether one is a citizen of venice or a stranger. There is an obvious social hierarchy between christians and jews, but as a metropolitan city, Venice, has to be more accepting because there is a diverse population that is moving through the city.
3) I think Belmont represents love and Venice represents business. Also, Belmont is more female dominated and Venice is more male dominated. Shakespeare contrasts these worlds by being very distinct about where different plot points happen. Bassanio and Portia, Gratiano and Nerissa, and even Jessica and Lorenzo don't truly get together until they are in Belmont. Another distinction is that Portia feels the need to become a man in order to go to Venice.
1.) Well for one thing, Shylocks commercial interests, in my mind have been to 'take a pound of flesh' and inflict Antonio some bodily harm. This is shown through his reluctance but willingness to not charge interest. Although conforming to the Christian value of not charging interest, Shylocks commercial interest have shown through his procured niceness.
2.) Venice is obviously favors the christian style of life but at the same time doesn't out right reject the jewish community. This is evident in the fact that Shylock is still able to become prosperous in this society yet he is still patronized and looked upon by his christian associates. I guess my point is that the society of venice favors those who are christian yet it is not the only caveat of success and being accepted.
3.) In my mind Venice is the spitting image of a dark, forbidding society in which there is constant danger. This ideology is furthered by the hatred and tensions between the christian society and the jewish community. Furthermore, Belmont appears to be much more carefree, easy going and generally happy. This idea is perpetuated through the countless suitors that attempt to court Portia
Daniel-
The expression of commercial interests and the expression of christian values is like the separation of church and state, it can be quite unclear. While Venice is supposed to be one of the most secular of the city States, the evidence of Christian dominance is everywhere.
Belmont is like a peaceful heaven compared to Venice. Belmont is safe, it is a place where daughters, like Portia, value their fathers. Belmont is more of the idealic ideas portrayed in culture. Venice, on the other hand, while grand is still dirty and is like New York in some ways in that it is powerful, but has unsavory characters. Venice and Belmont represent different idealogical views to life; the industrius rough and tumble of Venice, and the relative tranquility, peace, and phillosophy of Bellmont, a place where those in danger in Venice would go to hide.
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